Business Owner Finances with Shanna Skidmore

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This episode is geared toward the business owner (e.g., attorneys running their own firms, physicians or therapists running their own practices, architects or interior designers running their own businesses) – though I suspect everyone can get something out of it.

As business owners, how we spend our time has an impact on how much revenue and profit we experience. To discuss that with far more expertise than I have, I’m thrilled to have Shanna Skidmore—a business strategist and former Fortune 100 financial advisor—on the podcast to talk about how to build a business in a way that honors your time, your energy, and your life outside of work.

We get into:

How time and finances intersect in business
How to define what “enough” looks like for you—and how to use that to guide your business decisions
How to shift how you use your time in light of your “enough” number and where your time and finances currently stand
How building processes to help you with workflows and client communications can help – even if you don’t want to raise your rates, and so much more.

To learn more about Shanna Skidmore & her wonderful work:

Here website: shannaskidmore.com,
More about her podcast, Consider the Wildflowers: shannaskidmore.com/podcast
Watch her free webinar: shannaskidmore.com/watch

Below is a transcript of the episode. Enjoy!

Full transcript:

Kelly Nolan: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Bright Method Podcast, where we’ll discuss practical time management strategies designed for the professional working woman. I’m Kelly Nolan, a former patent litigator who now works with women to set up the bright method in their lives. The Bright Method is a realistic time management system that helps you manage it all personally and professionally. Let’s get you falling asleep, proud of what you got done today, and calm about what’s on tap tomorrow. All right, let’s dig in.

Hey. Hey, and welcome back. All right, so today’s episode is one for the person listening who is a business owner. Now, I know a lot of you are not business owners, but I do work with a lot of women who run their own businesses. They include attorneys who have their own firms or therapists who have their own practices, or interior designers who have their own businesses, and on and on and on.

And when I work with business owners, something that comes up frequently. Is the discovery of how time consuming certain types of [00:01:00] work or clients are, or how. Disruptive and needing quick turnarounds. Certain types of work or clients are, and that is really eyeopening, like I think people know it on some level, but seeing it in their calendar and understanding how much time certain projects for certain clients take or how disruptive and like fire driven, a lot of types of work are really sheds light on why time management can be such a pain point for some business owners.

A topic that comes in because of that discovery is, you know, money. A lot of the reason why a lot, you know, we are running our own business, we’re creating our own jobs. We need money as part of that. And when you have priced yourself, assuming a certain time commitment and realize the time commitment is more, or the disruptions are more than you realized over time.

Then that rate that you’ve established might need to shift or we might need to get creative if you think you can’t raise your rates or you [00:02:00] don’t want to raise your rates to think about how to make that time commitment less. So there’s really important intersection there that is fascinating to explore.

I love digging into it with clients. And because of that, I am thrilled to be able to bring a guest to the podcast today who can speak more to the financial elements of this, which I cannot. I am a time management person who had to learn business and finances as part of it, but I’m definitely no expert.

And so I’m thrilled to have someone who can come in today and talk to us more about the financial side of this issue so that we feel like we have more of an informed decision and might know where to go with it. So today’s guest, Shana Skidmore, is gonna talk to us about setting our revenue goals with an eye towards what’s enough for us versus, you know, that chase of more and more and more and more.

’cause we don’t know what is enough. We’re also gonna talk about, as I said, that intersection of time and money, and we’re even gonna talk about some things that you can do to. Help [00:03:00] ease that tension between time and money if you don’t wanna raise your rates even further. So before we dig into it, a bit about Shanna, so you understand how awesome she is and how excited I am to have her on the podcast.

Shanna Skidmore is a former Fortune 100 financial advisor, turned business consultant educator, and the founder of a boutique accounting and CFO firm serving women led businesses across the us. Of experience in finance, from corporate boardrooms to kitchen table startups. Shanna started her firm to fill a critical gap, bringing real financial strategy to small business owners who are ready for more than just bookkeeping.

Nicknamed the Dream Releaser by her clients. She’s known for turning financial overwhelm into clarity, confidence, and sustainable growth. Today she leads a team of highly qualified and highly relatable accounting professionals with nearly 30 years of combined experience and a shared mission to make financial clarity the norm, not the luxury for small business owners.

Through her [00:04:00] courses. In speaking, she’s taught thousands of students in over 26 countries helping business owners build profitable, ease filled companies with less stress and more strategy. That all sounds awesome, so let’s get into it. All right. Well, Shanna, I’m so, so excited to have you on the podcast.

Do you wanna go ahead and introduce yourself and just explain how you got to do and what you get to do today?

Shanna Skidmore: Yes, I would love that. Hi Kelly. Thanks for having me. This is so fun to sit on this side. Of the mic. So today, this is my what, 12th or 13th year, having my own finance practice. So my background is in financial planning, in accounting.

This is my 19th year being in the numbers world. I initially started by working with a lot of people who own their own practices, helping with financial planning on the personal side and the business side. Helping like build HR and pricing for salaries and all that in the beginning. Then I moved more into kind of the venture [00:05:00] capital world and I started working in-house with startups, which was really fun.

And again, just financial planning, pricing, cost modeling, all of that. And then I saw a lot of women in the creative field or even. Creative is such a interesting word. I always joke like my husband’s an engineer and he’s one of the most creative people I know, right? So even physicians, attorneys, like anybody who has that entrepreneurial spirit and has a gift and a talent, but may not know exactly how to run a business, they struggle with pricing or financial planning or, that’s my gifting.

And so I ended up starting my own practice. Back in 2013 and have just loved it ever since. So now we have a boutique accounting firm where we work ongoing with clients, and then I do one-off consulting as well, just for someone to come in and have that kind of, those eyes on your numbers and giving advice on how to increase profitability or just to build a business model that is more aligned [00:06:00] with the life you wanna live.

And so we have a small team in Knoxville, Tennessee, and we just love it. That’s awesome.

Kelly Nolan: Before we dig into kind of the substance of what you get to do now, do you mind just explaining like how you made the decision to go out and start your own business? I mean, it can be a big Yeah. Pretty big decision.

Like how did you decide to do that shift?

Shanna Skidmore: I love that you asked me that. Well, I was hanging with the finance bros a little too long and I got some bunions from my three inch high heels and no, I loved, I loved how I got started, but I was pursuing my MBA. I knew that. I was working with a fashion designer, a startup fashion designer at the time.

I was hired by the venture capitalist for, so think kind of like Shark Tank, but not Shark Tank. So I was coming in directly under the CFO and looking at pricing and costs. And what I realized is I saw this fashion designer so talented at what she did. A, not really believing in [00:07:00] herself, like, this is just a hobby that I love.

And, and B, not really having. Necessarily the right support beside her. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of women start businesses particularly, and men too, but particularly I work primarily with females because they want more flexibility in their time or their schedule, or they wanna be moms and, and most finance companies are a lot of men.

And again, not that they’re bad, there’s just not a lot of faces that look like mine. And so at the time I was, again, in venture capital. I was looking to get my MBA, and I remember sitting down at this big like mahogany desk that is what you would think of as like a in a big finance office. And they told me, well, kind of walked me through my future and they said, you’ll be traveling on the road Monday through Thursday.

Every single week you’ll be flying all around the country, meeting with business owners. Also consulting is very expensive and out of [00:08:00] reach for most small businesses. And when I say small business, I’m thinking of 10 million or less in revenue, which is like quite a large business for many of us, right?

Yeah. Um, and so I just knew that wasn’t the future that I wanted, and I had no idea what I was doing, but I was like, I live in Atlanta. There’s consultants flying in and out of Atlanta every single day. There’s business owners all around me that could use help. Why don’t I just. Try it on my own. Yeah. And so my husband was going back to school again.

I mentioned he’s an engineer, and so I was just like, I mean, if I can just pay our bills until he’s done, we’ll be fine. Yeah. And Kelly, it just took off so fast that first year in business, I just kind of threw spaghetti on the wall. I didn’t even know how to say what I did. I was like. Consulting, accounting, finance, you know, I dunno.

I was just making it up. Yeah. But there were so many incredible women that I got to work with and many now have gone on to be Inc. [00:09:00] 5,000. We have a couple clients on Magnolia Network, like just these amazing companies who are like, I have this gift in talent, but I don’t know how to make it profitable.

Yeah. Or could it be more profitable? And I just got to come in and use my particular gifting. I always say like, I read numbers, like most people read a book. Like it just, it comes to me really easily, like it’s how my brain works. Not technology, law, like all that. No, I’m at a block. I’m at a block, but numbers like they come to me and so it’s just been really fun to grow and, and see.

Again, we work primarily with females, but. That’s really how it started by somebody saying, probably like many of your listeners, like somebody saying, here’s your career path. Yep. You do not get to go a different way because this is how it works. And if you don’t like that, then like Good luck.

Kelly Nolan: Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: And it worked out.

That’s

Kelly Nolan: awesome. And if someone just, I think it helps to understand what you do. For those of us who don’t know. Even like what really accounting means, [00:10:00] like what are, yeah. Some of the bigger buckets of things you work on with clients. And then we’ll dig into some of the things that I really wanna talk to you about.

Okay.

Shanna Skidmore: Well, right now we have. Really three primary arms to the business. The first is our fractional CFO. This is an ongoing support, so this would be more on the traditional accounting side. So this is where we come in and work with businesses on an ongoing basis. So we have. A traditional like bookkeeper who’s tracking revenue and expenses, but most of the companies we work with aren’t big enough yet to have a CFO.

Mm-hmm. And A CFO is that next level of support. It’s like your strategic math friend who’s like, Hey, I’m noticing that your team is taking up about 50% of every dollar you make, and like someone to read those financials. Give you some opportunities and ideas for growth. Yeah. Or if you’re like, I explain like what’s normal

Kelly Nolan: and

Shanna Skidmore: [00:11:00] what’s

Kelly Nolan: not, like I wouldn’t know.

I’m like, maybe that’s how it should be. I dunno. Yeah, you’re like,

Shanna Skidmore: that is such an important question. Like how much should my team cost me of my revenue? Yeah. Nobody knows that except for like a CFO. And so we come in and not only track the data day to day, like an accounting firm, wood or a bookkeeper. We are keeping eyes on it to give you strategic insights.

So we’re looking at, hey, this offer, or for Kelly, for you, we could say your podcast is generating this much revenue. Probably not. Directly, but indirectly through a marketing avenue. Mm-hmm. But it’s costing you this much. How could we put more focus on getting it to generate more revenue? Like those types of things are what we’re doing on an ongoing basis with our CFO clients.

Then we have our consulting side, which is more so just one off projects if somebody wants to have a call with us. Just have us look at their profit and loss [00:12:00] statement and give them insights. Yeah, kind of like I mentioned before, like, Hey, we’re noticing here that this particular offer, whether it’s a new client onboarding call or session for like a.

Physician or something that’s bringing in 80% of your revenue and all of your follow up is taking 80% of your time. How can we flip flop that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s where somebody might just want some insights but not necessarily need the ongoing support. And then the third arm of our business is just education.

And so if the company isn’t yet big enough to hire us to work with them, you still need. To understand your numbers a little bit. Absolutely. And so we wanna educate small business owners on just how to make a financial plan, how to create a budget for your business. Some just standard things that would empower people who would typically say, Hey, I’m not really a numbers person.

And in a way that feels very simplified. I think one of the biggest compliments that I get is, you make money [00:13:00] easy. Yeah. You make numbers. Make sense for someone who doesn’t always get numbers, because I think. We can think this is so hard. Mm-hmm. This all feels so complex and if there’s only actually very few things you need to focus on, I think that would empower a lot of people.

So that’s kind of on the third wing, I guess, of the business. We focus on education.

Kelly Nolan: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Well, thank you. ’cause I think that it just helps, you know, I am probably the stereotypical person who came out of law. As a lawyer, I just did my lawyer thing. I didn’t think about finances. I didn’t think about marketing.

I didn’t think about sales. I didn’t think about anything about running a business. And then I started my business with this like substance of time management, but same like it’s been such a learning curve and to have. Someone like you in a back pocket helping Yeah. Make it less intimidating and like doable.

Yeah. Then it just becomes, it is really empowering then when you can make decisions from there.

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah. Thanks Kelly. I love what I do, obviously because, [00:14:00] but I think it is so interesting, especially most of the people we work with in some way or maybe a little intimidated by money. Absolutely. Um, but if you can come in.

And just be able to like, do you feel overworked? The numbers will tell us why. Yeah. Maybe it’s a pricing problem. Maybe it’s an overspending problem if we can just not only set up the system so you have the data, like some people just don’t even have the data.

Kelly Nolan: Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: But then once you have the data to be like, Hey, you know what, I think you could.

Increase your pricing by about 10% and that’s gonna dramatically make you feel better. Or cut this offer completely. Like that’s our goal is to come in and be like, Kelly, what do you want more in your business, in your life? Do you want more time freedom? Yeah. Okay. How? But you still need to make whatever your salary is.

Yeah. Like how can we strategically do that? And then also like. How do we specifically market? We’re not a marketing team, of course, but the numbers really help guide that. Yeah. Like should you be [00:15:00] spending your time making TikTok reels or is it better spent on like SEO if you need to take on a thousand clients?

If you’re selling an education course, you might need to be on TikTok, where if you only need 10 because you’re doing high level service, like it’s very different. Yeah. And so that’s where we just use the numbers to try to help you, not just like throw spaghetti on the wall and fly blind, but make decisions.

That make sense.

Kelly Nolan: Awesome. Well, I wanna touch on kind of a lot of different facets of what you just said. You and I have talked previously about like the importance of knowing your enough number, and I know it’s something you’ve really kind of pioneered in this space ’cause. To give people context, and I’m just kind of focusing on like the online business world space.

I’m sure it happens in other industries, but when I joined the online business space, it was like, make more money, seven figure business, blah, blah. Like always just driving for more and more and more and kind of like an arbitrary number more, or like even an ambiguous, like there wasn’t even put a label on it and you [00:16:00] really have put out this whole like know you’re enough number.

And so do you wanna explain like. What is the enough number? Why is it important, and like how do we figure that out?

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah, I love it. This is my favorite thing to talk about. Good. And surprisingly, for a long time I was actually kind of embarrassed to talk about it, so I’ll give you the backstory. When I worked in finance, I had a mentor tell me that if you do not want to make more money, you are just lying to yourself.

And for a long time I operated that way. Yeah. I thought that success meant achieving more, having more recognition, having more influence, making more money. But what I realized and what I started to realize for so many of my clients, and I’m imagining so many of your listeners. We are choosing the entrepreneurial path because we want to go our own way.

And often that means our own way is more time freedom, financial freedom, like freedom is success and, but we all define that differently. So what I [00:17:00] started doing for myself, honestly, because I’m such an overachiever, I’m such a perfectionist, I’m so competitive. That I just wanted to know what is enough?

What is the dollar amount required to have the life that I want, the life I wanna live, whether it’s a big life or a simple life, like how much does that actually cost me? Most people don’t know that. Yeah. And then how much does it cost to run my business? Like when I do financial plans for clients, we look at like, what does it cost?

Bare bones, like keep the lights on. What does it cost? We call it like your lifestyle number, like with ease. What’s I get to go get coffee as much as I want? And then we kind of do a reach for the stars number, but like, what is that number? And for a long time I was kind of embarrassed to talk about it because it made me, I, I was like, am I lazy?

Am I lazy? Because I wanna set a number. But no, what I’ve realized is it gives you peace of mind, [00:18:00] and that’s why I teach all of my clients and all of my students. If you know nothing else in your business, know this number. Because if you feel the need to slow down, you know what you have to hit. You also can run and reach for the stars and like think about new offers and new ideas, but like there’s something that feels really good at the end of the day and also.

There’s something so powerful about focus. If you know, I need to make a million dollars so everybody gets paid and I get paid, and we can go on that boat trip that we want, like if you know that you’ll do it, like you’re much more likely to do it. But if the goal is just do more like you never get to stop, you never get to rest.

And so that enough number really is. We say it’s like the place where ambition and contentment meet. Yeah. It’s not a lazy number. It’s a peace of mind number. And so that’s what I encourage all of my clients and everyone listening would love for. Even if you’re feel like you’re bad at math, just sit [00:19:00] down like, what would it cost me?

Lemme look at my bills to live my life. That becomes your salary. What you pay yourself, what would it cost me to keep my business going, and therefore, how much do I need to sell? In order to do that, that’s your enough number.

Kelly Nolan: Yeah, and I love that and I, I think the really important thing I wanna emphasize that was a big light bulb moment for me, is your enough number.

Well, I love the idea of also having your, like, keep the lights on number. Your enough number can still include like all your dreams, you know? Yeah. Like as you said, the boat trip or a big vacation or someone cooking for you and all this kind of stuff. Plus you know what you wanna save. Like it can involve all the stuff and yet there’s still a number there.

I think so often we’re like, yeah, I just need to make more and more and more safer college, save for this, all this kind of stuff, and we can spin ourselves out. Like I know that feeling. Yeah. Or. You can really get clear on what are all of those numbers. And still there’s a number there that is not More, more, [00:20:00] more, more, more.

Yeah. And I just think that’s, as we’ve talked about, there’s a lot of empowerment there versus Yeah, just not knowing the number and so just thinking you have to go for more and more and more.

Shanna Skidmore: I also think I love that, Kelly. I also think too. And again, that’s kind of why for a long time I had never really talked about it.

’cause I was like, gosh, I don’t want people to think I’m just like lazy over here. Like, how much do you have to have and then just stop working. But I think there’s something really strategic about it. There is I see a lot of people adding new offers, taking on work because they feel like they have to.

They feel like they can’t say no. Mm-hmm. When in fact like taking on that work is slowing down their progress in the end. Like if you are so overloaded with client work that you can’t think of a new offer or something a little more passive like because you’re just chasing a never ending goal. And I love what you said, like if you wanna go this, my husband and I do this, we call it our men.

I teach [00:21:00] students in one of my courses is we call it our dreamboat document, and so we sit down. ’cause when I grew up, like I didn’t grow up with a lot of money. My parents were very much like maybe lower middle class. So like with our church, we went on like youth trips. We always like went to the lake and so I just, for me, the epitome of like being rich, am I saying that right?

The epitome? No, like being the rich life was like getting to go out on the lake. Yeah. And so I always wanted a boat. I was like, I just love being on the water. And so we joke now it’s our dream boat document, but so it’s essentially like. Most people don’t know what it costs to actually achieve their dream.

Yeah. And like, but how much would it cost you to buy a boat? How much would it cost to buy that boat and pay it off in five years or 10 years or, or college, or if you’re saving for weddings, like the number feels so big and so scary until you actually break it down. And then the beauty of entrepreneurship is that you can chase after it.

Yeah. Like if you have a set salary, [00:22:00] it is what it is like. You kind of, you can budget well, but there’s not more like, well if I just took on five more clients mm-hmm. We could actually do this thing. And that’s what I love about financial planning. ’cause it’s like, have a dream. Make it possible. Yeah. Let’s figure it out.

Yep. No, I love

Kelly Nolan: that. I think what some of the pressure can come in on doing this type of exercise is thinking that you’re like locking yourself in for like, this is your enough number forever. Yeah. And you’re like, but I don’t know what forever looks like. And I think. It can change by season. I’ve heard you talk about like this might not be your reach for the star season.

Yes. ’cause you have like two little, little kids who are just physically demanding where knowing that maybe in a future chapter you can go for that, reach for the stars number or even change the number entirely. And the business model. Yeah. Like that’s so freeing to know I think.

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah. I love looking at this number every single year.

So we do a personal budget. I don’t love the word budget. We call it a six letter curse word. So we call it a spending [00:23:00] plan. We create a personal money plan every single year to know like, okay, what’s your salary this year? What is. And when I say salary, for anyone listening, it’s not like this is the amount you’re paying yourself on payroll.

It’s like how much money do you wanna put in your personal bank account from your business? That’s your pay. I set that number every year and it changes. You’re so right. Like we might have a big year where we have a big goal and I need to really look at like, how can we maximize my pay this year? Or Yeah, in the seasons of growing your family or staying more at home or working part-time, it might be less.

So we sit down and do this personally every year and for the business every year that That’s awesome. Okay, so

Kelly Nolan: we’ve talked about like, let’s pretend the person listening has figured out there are enough number, and I’m kind of thinking of the person who has an established business that’s humming along.

I think of what you and I do intersect so much about, obviously. You can get clear on how much money you wanna make, and then it’s like, what about where your time’s going?

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah.

Kelly Nolan: This is a [00:24:00] conversation I have with a lot of clients is there’s a realization at some point of, oh, servicing this type of client actually takes up way more time than I realized when I actually laid it all out.

Or maybe it’s not taking up as many hours per se, but it’s like very disruptive. They contact me and I’ve gotta drop everything, which to me has its own costs. Like even if it’s not maybe tons of hours, it’s very disruptive on your life. And so how do you talk to clients about that when they’re in those places?

About how to like, I’m not sure I’m wording this very clearly, but hopefully you’re picking up what I put down of maybe like modifying pricing structure. Yeah. To meet the revenue goals that they want to ultimately take the salary home that they want, but also take into account the time and disruptive Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: Element of all this. I love it so much. I think I’m following. Kelly. We do this exercise called Your Time Bank. Have you heard of me talk about this? Not really. Okay. Okay. I’m so excited. [00:25:00] So we sat down, I did this, it was actually my husband’s idea, I have to give him credit, whatever, where I sat down. It was in a season, I think my first year business, and I was feeling like super burnout out.

I had taken on way too much client work over. I underestimated how long it would take me to. Deliver the deliverables I promised, right? So we sat down and I mapped out my ideal schedule, and I know. So many people talk about your ideal schedule and know this isn’t like I’m working nine to five. It’s like how many hours do I really wanna give to my business?

Yep. Every single week. And then we looked at where all of my time was going. And I know, I think you and I are such kindred spirits in this, like I started tracking my time. I use a tool called Toggle. Mm-hmm. T-O-G-G-L. Have you heard of that, Kelly? I did. I

Kelly Nolan: used it at my second firm when it didn’t. Okay. My timekeeping system didn’t have an integrated one, so I used that.

Yeah. But yeah,

Shanna Skidmore: I’m sure so many of your listeners are used to [00:26:00] tracking their time, but when we become business owners, a oftentimes we stop tracking our time. Absolutely. And it was just so eye-opening, kind of what you were saying, like how much time I needed between meetings or transitioning calls or. It was so eye-opening.

And so what we talk about is like your time deposits. How much time are you depositing into your business? That’s like your ideal schedule. Then we look at your time withdrawals. So all the things that are taking your time, whether it’s client communication, actually doing your work, communicating with your team, running payroll, like any of the tasks you’re doing time withdrawals and most of us are time bust, like we’re negative.

We’re getting those NS FIEs with our time. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s where I think it’s so. Interesting to marry the idea of your time and money. Yep. People say time, and I think that time is, money can be such an icky saying, but when you look at it as the fact of like if you wanna make a million [00:27:00] dollars and you need to take on a hundred clients at your current place to do that, and in order to take on a hundred clients, you’d have to be working 70 hours a week and you wanna be working 35.

The math isn’t math thing, right? Yeah. And so then it becomes a simple math problem. If we wanna make, you know, whatever the number is, and we wanna do that with only 35 clients, how much do we need to charge each client in order to do that? Yeah. And so that’s where we kind of look at first, like, how much money do you wanna make?

And then how much time do you have to give? Yeah. In order to generate that revenue. And therefore, how much do we need to charge for each of our services? Or are there offers that we need to stop doing? Yeah. What offers aren’t making you that money? And always people say, Shannon, it’s just not that simple.

And they’re so right. Like you can’t just say like, I’m gonna charge a thousand dollars an hour. With no track record and no backup and no testimonials. [00:28:00] We have to understand then how do we create a package that’s worth that? Mm-hmm. Thousand dollars an hour. Does that make sense? And so that’s how I use the numbers to start really evaluating my offers and looking at my time as.

Every minute that I’m giving away for free, every minute that I’m responding to a client call every minute that I stay on a call longer than I book to stay on a call like. It’s time that’s away from my family ’cause I’m having to make the same money.

Kelly Nolan: Yep.

Shanna Skidmore: So that’s how I’ve really started a setting.

Great boundaries, communicating better. That’s how I literally sit down and evaluate at least every year, if not every six months. Looking at my offers. Are they still making sense? Am I spending more time with certain clients? Than I should be, depending on my deliverables. Like really evaluating my offers to figure out how to [00:29:00] become more efficient.

Not decreasing the impact for the client, but like really making sure it makes sense.

Kelly Nolan: Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: And if I’m over delivering, then to change my pricing accordingly.

Kelly Nolan: Yep. Really appreciate you sharing that. It’s amazing to me because I just think it’s so valuable and it’s at the end of the day it is.

Unfortunately is that simple? It’s hard to execute, but yes, you can’t get around the math in the same way that sometimes I think we want to. I’m gonna put you on the spot a little. Do you have an example? Not like names of anyone, but do you have an example of a shift someone made when they had this kind of aha moment of, wow, more of my time is going to this.

I need to raise my rates, whether it’s an hourly rate, whether it’s like a package rate, however it works to get to the revenue goal that I want, and like what were the ripple effects coming outta that?

Shanna Skidmore: Okay. Tell me if this is a good example. I have [00:30:00] so many different ones, but the first one that came to mind is I see all the time people in high luxury services, attorneys, physicians, wedding planners, like somebody who is charging a lot per hour.

Give unlimited time to their clients. I see a lot of people give unlimited time in their packages and there’s no way to, it’s, it’s unlimited. There’s no way to put a timeframe on that. And I think a lot of times we include things like that in our offers and in our packages because we think it adds value.

To our clients, but I think instead putting more parameters around how much time you’re spending with someone or telling them how it works in a specific example. So I’m trying to think of, I’m gonna try to give an attorney [00:31:00] example. You’re in a highly sensitive situation. You feel like you are a partner for this person going through something really challenging in their life. You wanna be there for them as much as you can. I’m assuming most attorneys charge hourly, which is great, but some may not.

Or they might take a percentage or. Or whatever, however it’s worked out. And so I think a lot of people feel guilt driven to give more service because they think that their clients will love them more or like them more for, feel more value from their service. But what I have found is if, if in an instance like that.

If you communicate, you’re gonna have questions. You are gonna have a lot of questions that come up in this process. If you will gather all of those questions together, and then we will have a recap meeting at the end of every month. Do you see how I’m like taking something that usually takes a lot of time up, back and forth, questions.

How does this work? How does [00:32:00] that work? How does this work? What about this? My friend told me this. What do you think about it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Instead, if they can gather all those questions up. ’cause I think emailing with clients is one of the biggest time sucks out there. Lemme say it a different way. Is time that we don’t often bill for because it takes us five minutes to answer, but it adds up, right?

So if you can communicate with a client. Keep all of those questions at the end of the month or however often you wanna set it, we will have one call and go over all your questions. Your client just wants to know that they are being taken care of, that they feel seen, they feel heard, they know the process.

They don’t need unlimited communication. Yeah, and so I have set up systems and basically boundaries like that with a lot of my luxury level service clients. I’m telling you, a 80% of those questions will not be questions by the end of the month. Mm-hmm. And they will figure themselves out. B, like the client feels so much more seen [00:33:00] and heard and taken care of.

’cause they know the expectation. So Kelly, I hope that’s relevant. Yeah. But that’s one of the biggest ones I see. Is that email communication, random questions throughout the day. It’s that stuff that you’re not often billing for it, but you’re answering them.

Kelly Nolan: Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: And how to create a system that still cares for your client, but also values your time.

Kelly Nolan: Yeah. And I think that that’s really fair. And if someone’s listening, thinking, I couldn’t do that once a month and do it once a week. Yeah. Same principle holds is that it’s then not disrupting your entire life. You can even give them. I don’t wanna say homework, but almost like as you gather the questions, also write down all the relevant facts, gather all the documents so we’re ready to have a, you know, efficient conversation around this.

Then it gives them something to do that also feels proactive and that is proactive often. Yeah, and I think both sides are met, but I think your bigger point too, of luxury high ticket does not [00:34:00] mean unlimited anything. And so long as you communicate boundaries. Parameters around communications and you know, even just like a response time to expect to emails if that’s how you communicate.

That’s really, really powerful and I think that it’s more of a non-issue than we think. We think it’ll be a big problem, but. I have found it’s not a problem and for anyone who has a problem for it, I kind of want that flagged on the front end. Yeah. So that I can be like, maybe this isn’t the right fit too.

It’s

Shanna Skidmore: amazing like how much clients just want to know what the expectation is. Mm-hmm. Some clients, yes, expect unlimited, but those are probably not the clients you want. They just wanna know what the expectation is. And I love how. You mentioned before, maybe some of your audience are realtors, I feel like in real estate transactions or any kind of situation where you need quick response time mm-hmm.

Where you need an answer quickly or that day, it’s kind of the same thing. So we, with our clients, we set up [00:35:00] what we call asynchronous coaching or asynchronous communication. And so we use a, a software called Voxer. And so our client, whenever it’s top of mind for them, can voxer us questions. Instead of all of it being on email, it’s in this one system.

But then I can get back to them or someone on my team that day. You can set the expectation, like you’ll hear from us at least once a day or within 24 or 48 business hours. Again, for realtors, they’re probably working the weekend, so it might just be 24 hours. Yeah. But that way they know you’ll get it and you’ll hear back from them within 24 hours.

But that way you’re not getting pinged like all day long, interrupting everything you’re doing. I just love that Voxer, there’s, I’m sure there’s tons of softwares you can use even via email if you like that better. But it’s like, we will review all of this at least once a day. We’ll get back to you. So [00:36:00] if there are times where it’s more time sensitive type of service, still not communicating, like you can get to me anytime, no matter what I’m doing.

Yeah.

Kelly Nolan: And in addition with that, and I’ll just throw out there, I mean, there are some industries where this stuff is harder to avoid just by the nature of whatever it is that your, the practice is. And I would just throw out there too that if that is what it is. Then considering really raising your rates to account for that two, one, make it worth it for you, but also allow you to take on less clients, all of whom will interrupt you so that you can hit those revenue goals as well.

If you can’t get around the reactive nature of it, then at least. Getting at it in a different way so that again, it’s, it’s not just making it worth it to you because it can often not be worth it to you, but if you can take on less clients, then overall you’re going to be interrupted less.

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah. I love Kelly that you brought up that point.

Something I would do and something we do with our CFO clients is we offer the level of communication that, of [00:37:00] their choice and the price reflects that. Oh, cool. Yeah. They can hear from us in our industry weekly, monthly, quarterly, or annually. And so depending on the level of communication and accessibility determines their pricing.

Yeah. ’cause you’re so right. Like if you have, every client can contact you at any time and you’re gonna respond, you’re gonna have to increase your team size or decrease your amount of clients. Mm-hmm. Therefore, the pricing has to be reflective of that. Otherwise you’re just not gonna stay in business.

Kelly Nolan: Yeah. And then you’re also not able to actually. Serve your clients very well, which I find I’m better at protecting clients than I am myself. So if I think of it that way,

Shanna Skidmore: it’s, yeah,

Kelly Nolan: it’s, that’s sad that it comes to that, but it helps me make those decisions where I’m like, if I’m taking on 50 clients and promising unlimited time, I’m not gonna serve.

It’s not fair to them. Yeah. And so let me figure out a different model here.

Shanna Skidmore: I love what you said, Kelly, and I think [00:38:00] you probably, I get this a lot with money. I’m sure you get a lot with time. Time and money are two things that are. Highly valuable and oftentimes we feel bad. We feel bad as a service provider, limiting our time boundaries feel hard, but I think it’s been proven psychologically.

Most people thrive within boundaries. Mm-hmm. And. I tell my clients this all the time, like we’re not charging more just so we make more money. We’re charging more for sustainability that you do not burn out over time, that you can be here 10 years from now. Yeah. By hiring the team you need, finding the space you need.

Like the same with time management. Like you’re not just capping your time so you can go out on the lake all weekend, which is actually, but that’s what’s gonna keep you not working all the time. Yeah. Is gonna keep you in business longer. And so when I think of it. That way. And I think when others think of it that way, one of the other things that I implemented very early on, I don’t know what you think about this, Kelly, but I call [00:39:00] it my 30 minute emergency rule.

Have we talked about this? No. Okay. You may hate it, I don’t know, but I realize that most emergencies aren’t actually an emergency, like most truly aren’t. So we implemented what we call 30 minute emergency role. I did this like my first year in business and so when someone emailed me or contact me with an emergency, one of my clients, I would just sit back and I would pause.

I don’t give it 30 minutes unless it like truly is an emergency. Somebody’s hospital, yes you were. Yes, you were right. This is actually an emergency, but you know, like. A panic moment. Mm-hmm. Because we, as the service provider, typically have gone through this a thousand times with a thousand different clients.

Like we get it. Buying a home feels like a lot and, but once you’ve done it a hundred times, like yeah, it kind of has a system. Same thing like filing taxes or I forgot to do my sales tax. Or So many instances. Your listeners, like, I’m sure they are replaying in their mind. That feels like an emergency to your [00:40:00] client, but you know, it’s not actually an emergency.

I get, I usually give it 30 minutes and I’m telling you like 85% of the time before the 30 minutes is over, they have contacted me and be like, you know what? We figured it out. Yeah. You know what? Actually this happened and we’re okay now. And I’m like, but if you’re always responding to that, that like in so many ways.

Impacts productivity. Yeah. Your time, your anxiety levels. And that’s one thing that I found as a service provider, just implementing a little boundary like that. Yeah. And honestly, sometimes it’s good for our clients to figure it out. Yeah,

Kelly Nolan: I think that’s great. I love it. It’s very efficient. ’cause then you don’t waste time spinning out.

We’ve talked about that. This is a little bit of a tangent, but in personal life. In relation to kids, if you have, if the listener has kids. I’ve talked about this before, but I had a friend who was a mom of more, like, she’s a more experienced mom. [00:41:00] Her kids are older than mine, and at some point she was like, yeah, any behavioral concern I have about them, I calendar out two weeks from now.

If this is still an issue, consider doing these things and like you just brain dump the things you’re thinking about and then future, you can also think of more things. But she’s like, often it resolves itself within two weeks. I mean, you know, if it’s like a real medical thing, obviously there are exceptions, but most things with kids tend to be little phases and in two weeks it’s fine.

And then I guess the reason I’m thinking about it is then you didn’t spin out emotionally. You spared your nervous system, you saved a lot of time trying to troubleshoot something that kind of resolved itself. So

Shanna Skidmore: yeah,

Kelly Nolan: I really love that in a business or a career context is just waiting 30 minutes, give it some space.

Everything calms in like 30 minutes usually.

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah, and we’ve also, Kelly created a lot of processes with clients. Like if there’s anything redundant and I mean, you’re obviously the time management queen, so I’m sure these are [00:42:00] so many things that No, no, this is awesome. From the financial side. We think about this a lot too, because the solution isn’t always just raise prices, raise prices, raise prices.

Sometimes it’s systemize your processes. Save time. Yeah. Create less expenses, because I always tell people, at the end of the day, profit is what matters more. Mm-hmm. More. We only hear, in my world, especially, people are only sharing their revenue. Six figures, seven figures. Yes, I made a hundred thousand a month.

Like, but those numbers, revenue with no context means nothing. Like how big is your team? Like how much do you pay yourself? Like yeah, how much do you have to pay in tax? Like, do you have someone else bringing money into your business? And so I think the key is profit. At the end of the day, how much is left over?

And so if somebody is charging. Four 50 for their, an hourly rate, [00:43:00] but they’re actually spending one hour of FaceTime and then two hours of work. Then they’re making less money than somebody who’s like charging. Three 50, but they’re only spending an hour. And then they have a team member. Yeah. Doing the other work.

Like we wanna focus on the actual profitability of your time and your offers. And so sometimes the answer is to systemize something. Yeah. So anytime I hear someone, if you repeat something to a client more than two times, put it into a kind of an SOP, like a standard operating procedure. Put that communication, put that answer, whatever, into like a Google Doc.

And so sometimes just. I’m sure you talk about this a lot, but like just really streamlining your time or if anything becomes an issue more than twice. Yeah. Or if you’re getting frustrated. I always, I heard this a long time ago, I heard someone say, if you are feeling bitter, it’s usually a lack of a boundary.

Yep. And so listening to that, [00:44:00] like, why am I so frustrated with this client? Maybe they’re not terrible. Maybe they’re terrible clients, but most of the time it’s just a lack of communication somewhere, and maybe for the next time you do that service or the offer, you put in a better boundary.

Kelly Nolan: Yeah, I love that, and I love that you bring up some scenarios are hard to get out of once you’re in it, but if you can really shift into, mm-hmm.

Okay, how do I avoid this going forward? I’ll deal with this particular instance. It is what it is, but next time, how do I weed out this type of client or. Set boundaries around this to save myself going forward, that that really shifts it for me because it then it becomes not my whole business that I hate.

It’s just like this one scenario and then I’ll solve it going forward.

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah.

Kelly Nolan: I just wanna really hammer that point you made about systematizing. I know I come from loss, so I’m thinking about it from the loss standpoint, but to your point. A lot of people open their firms and they might be doing a couple different practice areas for a couple different types of client, and I think that’s a totally fine approach in the beginning to figure out what you [00:45:00] enjoy.

Yes, who you enjoy working with. You’ll learn things, but at a certain point when you figure out what do I enjoy and what is profitable and. Hopefully those you can marry. The two is really trying to streamline down into that specialty because I mean, as we all know, I mean any industry. If you’re taking any project and half of them are new, there’s a lot of learning that you’re not billing for.

There’s a lot of like figuring it out and all sorts of stuff that the more you can do your bread and butter.

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah,

Kelly Nolan: yeah. There you can systematize more. You’re learning less, there’s less on-ramping. Like it really can be so, so valuable, and I just wanted to really emphasize that because you’re right. It’s so easy for me to go to like, raise your rates.

Raise your rates. And some people are like, I can’t anymore. Like in my market or in a realtor. It’s kind of like it is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we streamline the business itself? Yeah. So that your revenue still gives you the life [00:46:00] or Yeah. The, the pricing that you have still gives you the life that you want.

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah. You can make the two thoughts came to mind, Kelly, when you were talking about that. One is I think as a high achiever. Perfectionist. Competitive. I don’t think we often let it be easy. Yeah. And that’s something I’ve had to learn. This is my we year in business, like let it be easy. That actually means you’re working in your specialty and what you do best, and you’ve created streamlined processes, which means your client experience is better.

Like let it be easy. The idea of like letting it be easy, I think is actually quite hard for us. Yes,

Kelly Nolan: I think so too. I think we put a lot of like value on the misery a little bit. Mm-hmm. And that’s something I’ve had to work a lot at. And it is, I will say that this doesn’t apply to everybody, every business owner, but like shifting out of I.

I don’t bill hourly anymore for my time. It’s like a kind of a package that I sell, but I still, [00:47:00] in my head, whenever I think about, I think I need to make more money. I think I want to make more money. I think of the energy to make more money, but if I make more money, I’m gonna have to work so much harder, like.

I have that narrative in my head and I’m like, no, you, that’s not necessarily true. Like yeah, if we’re strategic and smart around this, we don’t have to be. Yeah. And to your point of let it be easy, there are like really creative ways that people do this. I have one client who’s a law firm owner, and not only has she streamlined, like this is her area of law that she practices and very narrow, and this is it.

She also is like, one of my qualifiers is I only work with clients who use email and it allows her to automate a lot. Like a lot of her systems are automated, her intake is automated. She has forms that do all these automated things where there are a lot of people out there who totally valid May, they just don’t use email that much.

They want more written correspondence or more in person. And she’s like, that’s great. That’s just not my client. And it allows her to run a really lean kind of more. [00:48:00] Repetitive automated process that works for her. And I just throw that out there. That to me, that’s such a creative way to systematize and make life easier.

Shanna Skidmore: Yeah.

Kelly Nolan: And I’m sure some people will criticize her and she’s like, okay, like that doesn’t matter. This is my life and this is what works for me. And I just think that’s so, just so creative and a great way to come at it.

Shanna Skidmore: I love it. I don’t think, we often think that we can, I see this a lot with my clients.

Like, you’re building it, build it how you wanna do it. Yeah. If you don’t like to. Be on the phone. I don’t love meetings. Like I just, I don’t like having things on my calendar. It stresses me out. I’m like, I don’t know how I’m gonna feel that day. Yeah. But I love like asynchronous coaching. Yep. Boxer me anytime and when I’m like sitting in the car line, I’ll boxer you back.

Like that to me is how I thrive. I love talking business, I love talking with my clients. It’s just, I don’t like set meeting, so it’s okay. Like design it how you want it, because why else have a business, you know? Yeah. If it’s gonna, yeah. Being not fun and [00:49:00] just kind of circling back. I just wanna say, Kelly, I think you and I are so similar.

Like I talk about money, you talk about time. I talk about time a lot too because it integrates so well with it. So I’m so glad we’re having this conversation. But I think the key and, and I’m sure pushback you get from your clients a lot too, is like the goal isn’t just to like sit on a beach and do nothing and have all this money rolling in.

Like, I mean, that’d be, that’s nice. Yeah, that’d be great. No, we actually like our work. We like what we do. Yeah. The key and the, and what I say with money too, is it has to keep us going for longer. Like if you burn out, whether you’re not making money or you have no time, like we’re gonna stop doing it. And I think if you think of it from that perspective, it fills.

Less. I think so many people, it feels selfish to them. Making more money feels selfish. Putting boundaries around my time feels selfish. But if we think about it like, no, this is longevity. Yeah, this is sustainability. This is giving you the ability to impact for longer. I think [00:50:00] it really shifts that mindset.

And then my last point is just making the differentiation between price and value. And I think this is something that comes with time in your business, but like Kelly, like you said, you don’t charge per hour anymore. Eventually you have to get away from pricing per hour like you do otherwise, your hours are always capped and your time.

Yeah, your money’s always capped. Yeah. But knowing like the value you’re bringing, and I think that’s a really hard concept sometimes for people to get their brain around, but it’s like, if you know that, you know somebody’s spending $10,000 to earn a hundred thousand dollars, then that’s value, and that’s you’re, it’s 10%.

Like, that’s where you can start seeing like a value-based approach versus a price approach. Does that make sense?

Kelly Nolan: Yeah, yeah. No. If, if there. Our industries where that’s possible. I do think that is like always, always the goal because yeah, it’s just money for hours. There are just constraints [00:51:00] on where you can go with that.

Yeah. So,

Shanna Skidmore: and if you are constrained by money per hour, then like you said, maximize your time. Yeah,

Kelly Nolan: yeah. Yeah. Well, I really could talk to you all day long, easily, and I’m gonna abruptly cut us off just so that we stop talking because we would keep going. I know. Shanna, thank you so much for joining us. If you wanna like, if, I’m sure there are people who are like, I would love to learn more about what you’re doing.

I desperately need this help, which I completely get as well. As a business owner, where can people learn more about what you’re doing? What do you have coming up? Feel free to

Shanna Skidmore: share anything you want to. So you can find all information about what we do our different se******@**********er.com. We also send out a weekly email.

We call it Finance Fridays, just with like financial tips. Yeah, it’s really good. And thanks Kelly. So that’s a good way to keep in touch. I am not on any of the social medias, so those are emails of. Best way to like day to day, week to week, be in touch. Yeah. [00:52:00] And you have your own podcast too. I do. Thanks for that.

It’s called Consider the Wildflowers. And we take the summer off, but we do a new season every fall through spring. And this next season coming up, I’m really excited about because it’s just me talking about money and finance and business ownership. And from my perspective, Kelly, how I started just defining enough, like I know a lot of people talk about building a business that supports your life, but that really is very important to the way I teach my clients.

’cause I came from a very opposite background. And so. I’m excited to kind of share a little bit of my thoughts more this season. So yes, I love that. You can just janice skimmer.com/podcast and you can find the details on them.

Kelly Nolan: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I just so appreciate you being here, and we’ll probably have to have another round of talking finance on here too.

Mm-hmm. Thanks, Kelly for having. Well, thank you for being here and for you at home. Thanks for being here as well, and I’ll catch you in the next [00:53:00] episode.

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